More hnn replies

A few more posted here, in case hnn deletes them.

First, this reply:

P-dog writes:

A very weak retort. Thomas Jefferson did not lead a revolution for the purpose of furthering slavery. The signers of the South Carolina secession resolution did. There's a difference. Evidently you don't get it. A libertarian, on the other hand, would.

Ah. I see. Can't reply direclty to my own post--don't want to sully your hands. It's all electrons, Tom, you know. And no one cares about you finnicky rules. You insinuate here I am not a libertarian. I think you are not one. So there. Where are we now? Fisticuffs? On Segways?

Look, you obviously have a carefully-mapped out list of what is permitted, and what is not. It's okay to worship Jefferson, even though he owned slaves and raped one of them... but not to admire Jeff Davis, who freed his slaves.... because of "the" "purpose" of the "secession." Jefferson was in favor of secession... so was Jeff Davis... both secessions resulted in independent nations where slavery was legal... hmm, but "the" "purpose" --heck, I didn't konw there was "a" "the" purpose. You sure are smart, Tom.

Jusy give us the list of officially approved rules (run it by your benefactor first, would you) so we will know how to conform to the new world order.

And another one:

P-dog sayeth:

When someone says that I'm a contrarian at root, I'm tempted to deny it.

Interesting. Do they say that to you often? I don't think anyone's ever told me that. But then, I mostly hang out with normal people, most of whom have never used the term "contrarian" in their life.

But in this case, it would be true. To be a "contrarian" per se is just to be contrary: against what others believe. I believe in liberty. It is a positive value. I want it and I work for it. That's the difference between libertarians and people who are merely "anti-state." The latter are merely against something, but not for a positive alternative.

And here goes the shiv. P-dog first subtly implies that we--you know, the ones he constantly libels on his smearblog--are "merely" anti-state. This is ridiculous. As Roderick Long pointed out on this thread, "Pessimism?? Is this pessimism?" Of course, P-dog does not reply to Roderick (and strangely, he will not bash his friends or others with some weird immunity, even though they share the same views he schizophrenically attacks in others associted with this bete noir, the Mises Institute--you know, the big, hairy, evil group--ghoulish, he calls them elsewhere, who have "opened the gates of hell" (his words)--who ummm, promotes free-market, Austrian economics and, er, umm, libertarianism. Yeah, they are SCARY, SCARY. .... BOO!).

We are not "merely anti-state". We are of course in favor of rights and liberty. Has Palmer ever heard of, oh, I don't know, the fricking JOURNAL OF LIBERTARIAN STUDIES? Or Reason Papers, which Mises Institute hosts? Can P-dog with a straight face deny that the Mises Institute promotes the thought of Mises and Rothbard? Would either be called "mere" anti-statist? with no positive views about liberty, or rights? This is ridiculous.

As for being "for a positive alternative," now we get to the nub of the matter. I suggest Lew Rockwell's article Regime Libertarians. Just because not all libertarians are compromising, sell-out policy wonks who want temporary, incremental increases in liberty at the cost of liberty in other areas, or don't toe the line of a given beltway thinktank, does not mean we are not also "for" a "positive alternative." The insufferable arrogance emanating from Palmer's perch is truly a sight to behold.

Lots of people are in opposition to the state: they include a great many people with whom I would not want to be categorized, such as criminals, terrorists, advocates of other forms of coercion and tyranny, such as a Caliphate or feudalism.

Yeah, deep, man, deep. Wot a great insight.

You know, lots of hippies and scumbums are also in favor of legalized drugs and prostitution too. Let me guess--you are not "merely" in favor of drug legalization. You are "more" than that, right? And you would not want to be "reduced" to a mere defender of porn or drug rights. Hey, I have an idea--why don't you realize the universalizability principle actually applies here? Hmmm?

I'm not just "against the state," because I favor liberty, which is why I favor restrictions on the state. When people enjoy more liberty, I am pleased by that, at the same time that I am mindful that injustices still exist.

Being a "contrarian" is being a second-hander, letting others dictate to you what you will stand against, rather than choosing that *for* which you will stand.

Whatever. Cue violins. When the Randroid lingo comes out, my eyes glaze over.

Of course, those fellow libertarians whom you malign and hate at the Mises Institute are in favor of liberty and individual rights.

And another:

Mr. Gregory, if a state were torturing people to death in truly cruel and unsual ways, would you join hands with Mr. Kinsella and march against the federal courts taking steps to stop such behavior? I would hope that you would leave Mr. Kinsella to march on his own, as would all of the rest of the libertarians on the planet.

Mr. Palmer, can you not read? I have admitted many times over the purely instrumental value of the US Constitution. I would not hesitate to oppose it where I thought it unlibertarian. As a matter of fact, I think it is unlibertarian and I think the federal state it set up ought to be disbanded. You would not I suspect, because we need a benevolent nanny to ride herd over the nasty, naughty states, and the feds are your daddy, aren't they? WHO'S YOUR DADDY?

If the state were torturing people, this would not change the fact that the US Constitution does not authorize the feds to stop it. Would I in some cases "want" the feds to march on the states to stop this anyway? I don't know. What has that to do with whether the Constitution authorizes this action? To my mind, integrity calls for an honest interpretation of the Constitution. Where it is illiberal, we can acknowledge this, and then consciously choose to abandon the Constitution, or try to change it.